52 thoughts on “WINNING at The Closet

  1. If you want to feel good about all this, please pay a visit to the Rick Perry FB page: It has been and continues to be over run by outraged responses. Additionally his video has an unprecedented number of ‘dislikes’. It restores my faith in people – somewhat.

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    • Who cares if it’s in the Bible or not? The laws of our country should not be dictated by Scripture. This country was founded on a belief in religious freedom. The pilgrims were fleeing a theocracy. Rick Perry and his ilk want to bring about a new one. That bothers me.

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        • What if I don’t believe in God? What if my friends who are in committed gay relationships don’t believe in God? Why should they give a shit what the Bible approves of?

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        • Marriage has, for a while now, been celebrated by men and women who don’t believe in God. Many marriages are performed outside of the church – in fact I believe it is now a majority of couples who get married without it being associated with religion – in Australia anyway.

          To say that marriage is solely the property of the god-fearing is to ignore this fact. If this were the case then it should also be illegal for atheists, agnostics and non-church goers to get married. But it’s not.

          I have no problem with churches, mosques and temples saying that for them marriage is between a man and a woman – but they don’t get to decide that for everyone else and enforce it upon everyone else. Just as legalising gay marriage would not enforce a law upon churches, mosques and temples saying that they have to perform gay marriages.

          According to my understanding of the Bible and the example that Jesus set, one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is to treat others equally and with respect and love. Ultimately, it is God who will judge what we do here on earth. I would have thought it was decidedly un-Christian to deny other people the ability to be enfranchised in society, and to enjoy the full emotional and mental benefits of being recognised fully as human beings with the capacity and the desire to love and commit to one another – to feel supported, included and embraced by the community around them. I don’t see the point in denying anybody that.

          Even if you do believe it is a sin, isn’t God the one who takes care of all that judgement stuff after we die? Being a Christian doesn’t mean that you have to police the world, it means walking in the steps of Jesus and living your life in a way that sets an example for others. It is then up to others as to whether they see good in that or not.

          And the thing about the jacket? It’s a joke.

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          • It’s not just religious institutions that are withholding the right to marry. The government is also withholding the right, though more and more states are recognizing gay marriage every day.
            Again, religion shouldn’t inform the laws of our land, especially when people’s civil rights are being infringed upon.

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        • Well obviously you didn’t get that joke because you took it seriously – or at least you responded to it like Bronc was seriously suggesting his choice of jacket meant Rick Perry is gay.

          Well, I have never been married myself – but my understanding from what I’ve heard from friends and family, religious and non-religious, is that the act of marriage is for them a symbolic union of the two people and their love, and their intention to be united until death or beyond.

          Symbols and symbolic acts have huge importance for us as people – they always have. I’ve also heard people say that the act of publically declaring your love in front of friends and family is a very powerful moment of celebration that unites the two families and as well as the two individuals. Knowing that your community and society support you in that moment is an important part of that.

          If it’s just a ‘piece of paper’ – and there were nothing else behind it – then it wouldn’t matter so much.

          If you think marriage is just about a piece of paper then perhaps you’re the one who doesn’t understand what marriage means, and how it is symbolically celebrated in the act of a wedding.

          You can’t at one moment be claiming that marriage is sacred and beautiful and meaningful, and then the next second say that it’s just a piece of paper. Taking God out of the equation doesn’t mean that you take out the love and emotion and humanity out of marriage. If you’re going to say that Gay marriage (without God) is just a technicality, then you’re also saying that applies for people who have been married without regard to God.

          Marriage has been around since before Christianity – Jesus didn’t invent marriage, and he’s not the only thing that gives it meaning.

          Again – it’s cool if Jesus gives it meaning for you. I’m not trying to take that away from you. But people find meaning in marriage from all different sources not to do with God.

          And this isn’t even including a discussion of gay Christians, Muslims and Jews.

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        • Hey Bronc and Gaybriel, you guys make fantastic, logical points but fuck you. /sarcasm

          For a large part of history (and in some places today) marriage under god meant the wife was the husband’s property. In the bible it even says that, I believe. How sacred.

          Bottom line, how does other people’s marriage affect YOU Catherine? Honestly, on a personal level, does my relationship with someone of a different ethnicity affect you? Does a gay person’s marriage invalidate yours? Does someone 30 years older than their spouse mean your love is now corrupt? It does not affect you so why worry about it at all?

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        • I don’t want to change your mind about whether being gay is sanctified by the bible – I just want to change your attitude wherein you think you have the right to decide how other people live according to your own personal beliefs.

          To think that everyone should live like you (or suffer the consequences) is the ultimate kind of arrogance, and it’s an arrogance that precludes the ability to truly care for the well-being of others and be open to what they need.

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        • And how does gay person marrying keep you form having your hetero partner from having you covenant? Is it less sacred because you can’t exclude someone?

          Also, J.C. was hung with lepers, prostitutes, and tax collectors; I doubt that a gay couple would get his robes in a twist.

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          • You’re never going to get a good answer, Ali. The True Believers have been using the Holy Book to justify their bigotry since the beginning of time. They’re in the Special People Club and you’re not. And once you’re in the club you get to turn around and decree that everyone else must have something wrong with them. It’s pretty sophomoric, frankly.

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        • Let’s not forget the legal and financial benefits of state-recognized marriage. As a lesbian, I have to go to a lawyer and pay handsomely to get just a few of the basic rights that any straight couple can get for the cost of a marriage license. So no, it’s not just a piece of paper, and modern marriage is NOT simply a covenant with God. If you want your special covenant thing to be different from the common modern definition of marriage, then name it something else. But keep it as JUST a covenant and leave the legalities out of it. You can’t have it both ways.

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        • It’s much more than just a piece of paper, as has been stated. You have acknowledged that two people of the same sex can be just as in love as two people of the opposite sexes, so that’s a start. Unfortunately, however, in most societies, as in our own (I’m Australian too) despite the “de facto” status some can earn… if one half of a same sex couple is in a horrific accident, and is in a hospital room, dying… in most societies, their partner has no right to see them in their last moments. And that’s just one of the many perks that come from having that seemingly insignificant piece of paper.

          Guys, I’m a non-Christian, but my partner is Christian, and so too are his friends. I was completely overwhelmed recently to find out that most of his friends support marriage equality in Australia. To quote one of them; “people should not be discriminated on their sexuality, no matter what it is ”

          Which really begs the question, is it marriage equality you’re against, Catherine? Or is that you’re for discrimination?

          Think about that.

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        • @Catherine: Simple response: You can’t legislate morality. Morality is subjective to the individual.

          I’m a woman, and I lived with my husband for 5 years before we got married. We knew we would be together forever, but we were hesitant to get married, feeling that we didn’t need that legal documentation. It wasn’t until we bought a house together that we realized the implications financially, medically, etc. of remaining unmarried. The benefits of a legal binding agreement are important in our society (for whatever reason). Whatever your religious perspective, it’s just wrong to deprive same sex couples of the same benefits in the eyes of the law, which isn’t supposed to discriminate.

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      • I love you. Will you get gay married to me, provided you’re a woman. (You know, since I sport a bajingo and all).

        Also, the Bible has a problem with eating shellfish, so if you like shrimp, Enjoy Hell, Devil! Oh, and mixed fibers? That poly-cotton blend is an abomination! Catherine, why pick and choose your bigotry and ignorance?

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    • You may believe you don’t hate gay people but your attitude shows that you do.

      There are lots of things that the bible does endorse (especially in the old testament) that I bet you don’t agree with and would not do but you’re using it as an excuse to deny people their basic rights.

      Marriage is not just a religious term but also a legal one. If it was just a term used in your religion then I couldn’t give a shit if you didn’t want gay people to marry but marriage also has many legal ramifications. You are trying to deny people the right to be fully protected under the law, based on their sexuality. People like you are the same as people who tried to deny women the right to vote or deny couples of mixed race the right to marry.

      You’re a hate-filled bigot and you make me ashamed to be Australian.

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      • I am Australian and embarrassed that she identified herself as Australian……. I think that most others in our country don’t think like she does….At least i really really hope so…… sad now…

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      • As much as I don’t agree with Catherine’s point of view, I don’t think it’s going to help her change her mind much if we insult her and put her down.

        To me she didn’t come across as hate filled – she just seemed unaware of her own prejudice.

        Even if Catherine has gone away from this conversation without changing her mind, what will she predominantly remember from this? People insulting her or trying to talk to her?

        I know it’s a hurtful issue for a lot of people but I honestly don’t think that shouting someone down or bullying them will help to change their mind – or the mind of someone else who comes and reads these posts and maybe has a similar view point.

        I’m not ashamed that Catherine is a fellow Australian. I would gladly have a beer with her and shoot the shit. No one is perfect and I think it’s a bit much to act like Catherine is the devil because she has, from our perspective, a prejudice or a blind spot.

        I’ve had my own prejudices in the past (and I’m sure I’ve a few now) but I’ve not learnt and changed because people got aggressive towards me and called me a bigot, I actually changed from the gentlest conversations and experiences that gave me the opportunity to change. If you back someone into a corner, or verbally attack them, all you’re going to do is make them defensive and make them shut down to what you’re saying. And then we all end up in the same place except everyone is angry and hurt.

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    • Here’s something to consider. If I were to get in a horrible car accident tomorrow, my partner could not come to the hospital to see me. She would have no say in whether I was kept on ventilators, something I do NOT want. She would have no say in whether I was resuscitated over and over again, breaking bones only to revive my body, but not necessarily my mind, again a no thank you option, and should I die, she would have no input into what happened to me post mortim (FFS, burry me in one of the green, no casket, no headstone cemeteries and let my body go back to the earth the way it’s intended).

      Instead, the person who would have control would be my mother. My mother, who would likely keep me alive and in physical, mental, and emotional misery. My mother, who would spend tons of money to put my body in an expensive and wasteful box stuffed with chemicals, stuff I DON’T believe in.

      Now, here’s the fact: If I wanted to change JUST that basic fact, I would have to go to a lawyer and draft up papers. These papers MAY OR MAY NOT be thrown out by the courts, based upon the bias of the judge.

      Now if I were able to get married to the person that I love, that would not be a problem. For the cost of a marriage license, I could have the security of knowing that the person that I love was in charge of JUST THAT BASIC SMALL THING, I would feel calmer and safer.

      ONE ARGUEMENT. That’s only ONE of the MANY arguments I have. There’s also inheritance, tax breaks, and thousands of other legal things, big and small, that are covered by the LEGAL INSTITUTE OF MARRIAGE.

      I don’t tell you how to live your life. I give not shit one about how you conduct your personal relationship.

      You have no real right to have an opinion on MINE. Keep YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS off of MY BODY and out of MY LIFE.

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      • While I know that my mother would definitely pull the plug, those are some of the same reasons, as a hetero couple, my husband and I decided to get married. I couldn’t be added to his health insurance because they didn’t do “domestic partnerships”.

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  3. If your faith in the Almighty brings you peace, bravo. Enjoy your happiness. Seriously, you’re very fortunate. But while you’re enjoying this blissful existence, would you mind not destroying the happiness of others? That shit ain’t Christ-like.
    Plus, if you’ve already got the one-way ticket to Paradise, if you’re all taken care of in the Hereafter, what do you care what we do down here on Terra Firma? You’re going to get the last laugh anyway, why don’t you leave us alone to enjoy life as we see fit?

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    • It REALLY bothers me when people use the Bible as justification for hate, abuse, and all manner of other things that are horrible. I personally do believe in God, but not in a God who would abide the actions of those who claim to who do really crappy stuff in his name.

      And if you read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that people just love to bring up as an excuse to hate gays, the city was NOT destroyed because of homosexuality. It was destroyed because the people were so wicked and lustful and without morals of any kind, that they would have sex with anything that moved, didn’t matter if it was guy or gal, strangers, animals, or kids. (They threatened that if they didn’t bring out the stranger for them to rape, they’d rape the young daughter instead. That’s not being gay, that’s being a bunch of creepers.)

      And I absolutely agree with the fundamentally patriotic principal that government does NOT have the right to force religion on us. So just because certain sects of Christianity and other religions feel homosexuality is a sin, it does not mean that the government should be enforcing one religious viewpoint over another.

      If people want to live in a place where the predominant religion dictates the laws, they can feel free to move somewhere else because that is NOT America.

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    • Being able to spend the rest of my life with the right person is what marriage is all about, and I would never want to deny anyone that right. I’m not a particularly religious person (at this time in my life), but marriage still means something very important to me. If one were to decide that gays can’t marry on religious grounds, then civil marriages should be denied to Atheists next.

      As something of an aside, I’ve never understood the religious objection to gay marriage, since it not only allows a married couple special benefits, but also constricts one’s legal obligations: Monogamy, shared wealth and property, obligations to children that are part of the marriage. Isn’t it a LACK of these obligations that is at the root of the religious right’s objections to homosexuality in the first place? Perhaps it isn’t, and I’ve missed an important point, but it has always seemed to me that that is the aspect of the religious right that doth protest too much. They’re the ones who are so often caught with their pants down, so to speak.

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  4. This isn’t just about gay men and woman wanting to get married because of the “symbolism of the act”. It’s also about the legal protections that marriage provides in the eyes of the government. Too many people who are life partners have been denied their rightful ‘spousal’ rights when their partner is sick, dying, deceased.
    I am not gay, I am not Christian (anymore)and I believe everyone should have the same civil rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Let’s keep religion out of this- it’s a CIVIL RIGHTS issue.

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  5. I like how when Herman Cain gets busted for squeezing boobies other than his wife’s, everyone says what he does in his personal life is his business. But if he was a gay guy, he’d be absolutely vilified.

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  6. Marriage is NOT just about feelings and remaining together forever. It is a legal stance that many wish to attain so they can, among many other things, be allowed into their loved ones hospital room in an emergency, for instance. To be treated as a SPOUSE would be, with all that entails, LEGALLY. How would you like to be with someone as their spouse for decades, only to be told you cannot be with them on their deathbed…because you are not “family”? For instance. But why would someone want to do that that’s not straight?

    It seems odd to me that the Bible tells us that only God can judge us, but those that claim to believe in it (more than you and I do) are some of the judgiest people there are.

    As someone else said, if you don’t like gay people, blame the straight ones…they’re the ones who keep having them.

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